THE HON DR ANNE ALY MP

Minister for Early Childhood Education

Minister for Youth

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Albanese Government will introduce legislation to deliver a pay rise for child care workers. Now, the legislation will set up a special account to lock in funding for a 15% wage increase for workers. The government says the legislation will give workers certainty that funding is set aside for a wage increase. And they say they've constructed, in a way to make it harder for a future government to cut support. We'll delve into that in a moment. It comes as another set of laws are introduced, maliciously sharing someone's personal information online will be punishable by up to seven years in prison under these strict new anti-doxing laws that will also be introduced. There's also the misinformation and disinformation, social media obligations; the Parliamentary agenda is clearly very busy. Anne Aly is the Early Childhood Education Minister and joins us this morning. Minister, welcome.

MINISTER FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, DR ANNE ALY: Thank you, Patricia. Good morning.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: This is for two years. I'm talking about the child care increase in wages. After that, will you continue to demand a cap on child care fees if you keep paying for wages?

DR ANNE ALY: Well, to be clear, we already pay for wages because we subsidise early childhood education and care services, and the services pay wages. So, a component of the subsidy that we provide to early childhood education and care services go to wages. In terms of the cap, currently it's at 4.4%, that is what we've attached to this 15% increase. That's based on some interim figures that we've got. What we're looking at is getting the ABS to give us a figure going forward after this first year that will be attached as a cap to prices in line with what the ABS figures give us.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, there will be a permanent cap beyond the two years, once the ABS establishes where that should be set.

DR ANNE ALY: There will be some form of price mechanism in line with what the ACCC has recommended. The one that we've got now is part of this two-year wage increase. This two-year 15% wage increase is in recognition of the workforce crisis that's out there and the need for retention of workers and an increase in the number of early childhood education and care workers so that we can start building the reforms that we need to build to work towards that pathway to a universal early childhood education and care system.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And you've also claimed that the Bill is established in a way, or the pay increase is established in a way to ensure that a future government, perhaps, I don't know if you lose the next election under that scenario. It's not repealed as easily how is that the case?

DR ANNE ALY: Well, it's set in legislation for 10% this year and 5% in the following year. So, you know, I guess that, you know, if the liberal or the coalition government gets in next year and decides that they don't want to give early childhood educators a pay rise, that early childhood educators don't deserve the pay rise, or they think that, you know, this could be part of their $300 million of cuts that they are saying they're going to make, then they could introduce a bill to repeal it, but it would be very difficult to do that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Productivity Commission modelled the economic, fiscal and societal effects of a 90% subsidy for all household. Is that where we ultimately need to be?

DR ANNE ALY: I think there are different ways to get to what I call a universal early learning system and that I describe as one that is accessible, affordable and inclusive. Now, it could be a 90% subsidy for every household, there could be different ways of approaching it. I've looked at research and findings from right across the world in different countries, in what they've instigated and what they've kind of embedded as universal systems - of early childhood education and care. And there are a lot of things that we can learn from the ways that different countries have approached it, from those who have introduced a flat fee model, who have introduced a fully government funded model. There are different things that we could learn, but we have to have something that's uniquely Australian. The PC has finalised its review. We are considering that now and it will be released to the public shortly. But we charged them with giving us some recommendations in charting this pathway to universal early learning. What we'll do is consider that and look at what is best suited to us and the different contexts in Australia, whether it's rural, regional, inner city where we have vulnerable and disadvantaged communities. We'll look at the whole picture.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, the Productivity Commission's final review is coming shortly, you say, and that will guide what you take to the election in terms of promising to implement universal child care, perhaps in a second Albanese term.

DR ANNE ALY: It'll take us beyond the election. It'll take us to the reform the early learning sector to a truly universal world class quality early learning sector.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How quickly can we get to a universal approach?

DR ANNE ALY: Well, it's not going to happen overnight. Let me say that, Patricia, this is big reform. We have an early learning system that is pretty much a behemoth of large for profit, large not for profit, small for profit, small not for profit, community run, council run, centre-based family daycare in home care, mobile care. So, it's a real mix, and every single one of those is a valuable part of the system, of the ecosystem of early childhood education and care. What's not working is that we have areas, as the ACCC has pointed out, where there are a lack of services or no services. That means that children are missing out. That means that children and families are missing out on those vitally important years of early childhood education and care.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to move to another topic before I let you go. Other legislation is also being introduced today. In fact, it's a pretty busy set of legislative reforms being rolled out today. It is genuinely, there's quite a bit going on. So, let's talk about another one. After a series of high-profile incidents in which people were publicly identified and attacked for their views on the war between Israel and Hamas, the government says it's going to outlaw doxing. Now a seven-year penalty for doxing. Why is that necessary?

DR ANNE ALY: I think it's necessary because it's become an issue that threatens the safety of Australian citizens. I don't think it's justifiable to ever release the personal information of a private citizen in order to insight or to give out information to encourage or so that people can utilise that information to attack them or threaten their safety and security. I think these are great laws. And I particularly think having a higher penalty where doxing is done on the basis of somebody's religion or gender or race really goes to the intentions of doxing and a recognition that where those intentions are based on prejudice, hate or any form of hatred, that that is a serious offence.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Labor is also going to expand its plans to crack down on lies on social media. It wants to add political content into misinformation laws before the next election. But that actually might be quite controversial. There will be some that will argue it will curb free speech. Why should the Australian Communications and Media Authority be able to investigate social media platforms like this? And could it have a chilling effect on free speech?

DR ANNE ALY: Yeah, I don't buy the kind of the argument about free speech being entirely free. I mean, since I've been in this Parliament. You'll remember, Patricia, in 2016, when I first entered this Parliament, we had a whole debate about free speech and the removal of Section 18C from the Racial Discrimination Act. Free speech comes with responsibilities. In a democracy, free speech is a right and rights and responsibilities exist. And one of the responsibilities about free speech is that you ensure that your speech doesn't have the kinds of consequences that some of the misinformation and disinformation out there has – that’s what this is about. And these laws are really looking at what are the impacts of misinformation and disinformation here and where those impacts, again, have a threat to safety and security of citizens, but also a threat to democracy in a sense. I think the tranche of laws that we're introducing today I'm very proud of. And I think they go to the protection of our democracy, the protection of citizens, but also take taking seriously the impacts of misinformation, disinformation, of doxing, of acts that impinge on the privacy of Australian citizens as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: There are protests unfolding in Melbourne at the moment. Pretty big protests, some pretty incredibly fiery clashes between police and protesters yesterday. James Patterson, who's the Home Affairs spokesperson for the Coalition, wants further efforts to clamp down on what he's called extraordinary levels of lawlessness. Since October 7, he's said that we've seen threats to violence, threats to kill, incitement to violence, and no one has been charged or arrested. Let alone prosecuted and sentenced for those crimes. Do we need more laws?

DR ANNE ALY: I'm of the belief that laws don't change much, don't necessarily change behaviour, and that, you know, really societal change and cultural change is what changes behaviour. So, I think, you know, laws can, laws can do only so much, really. We need to be a country that fosters civil debate, fosters our democracy, fosters the ability for people to agree or disagree civilly, much like what you do every Monday on Q&A, being able to have a variety of ideas that differ without that moving into violence or hatred. And I think we need laws to protect people, yes, but we also need to foster a culture of civil debate.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Anne Aly, thank you for joining us.

DR ANNE ALY: Thank you so much, Patricia. Have a great day.

[ENDS]